Who is the Holy Spirit, and how does an understanding of the person and work of the Holy Spirit contribute to our life and faith as believers in Jesus?
Fred has focused much of his theological work on the topic of the Trinity, so when it comes to talking about the person and work of the Holy Spirit, he has a unique and helpful perspective.
In this episode we talk about what the Bible says and doesn’t say about the Holy Spirit, whether it’s okay to pray to the Holy Spirit, and more.
Who is the Holy Spirit, and how does an understanding of the person and work of the Holy Spirit contribute to our life and faith as believers in Jesus?
Fred Sanders is professor of theology at the Torrey Honors College at Biola University. He is the author of a much sought-after series of theological comic books, as well as the recently published book, The Holy Spirit: an Introduction, which is part of the Short Studies in Systematic Theology series put out by Crossway Publishing.
Fred has focused much of his theological work on the topic of the Trinity, so when it comes to talking about the person and work of the Holy Spirit, he has a unique and helpful perspective.
In this episode we talk about what the Bible says and doesn’t say about the Holy Spirit, whether it’s okay to pray to the Holy Spirit, and more.
Make sure to visit the Theology for the People website at nickcady.org
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As Christians, we confess that there is one God who eternally exists in three distinct persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
The three persons of the Trinity are equal in power and glory, are co-eternal, and are of the same essence (Ousia in Greek).
The Father is God, the Son is God, the Spirit is God, but the Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Father, nor is the Spirit the Father or the Son.
The three persons of the Trinity also have unique functions, and relate to each other in unique ways. As a result, we can speak about the Trinity in two ways: the “Ontological Trinity” and the “Economic Trinity.”
OntologicalTrinity
“Ontological” has to doing with “being.” So, to speak of the Ontological Trinity is to explain who God is, and who the three persons of the Godhead are.
The major ecumenical councils of the church, such as Nicaea and Chalcedon, focused on the ontological nature of the persons of the Trinity, and affirmed that Jesus, the Son, is very God of very God, and that the Holy Spirit is not an impersonal force, but is, indeed, God.
So, to speak about the Trinity ontologically, is to affirm both the divine nature and the unique personhood of the three persons of the Trinity.
Economic Trinity
“Economic” has to do with action, roles, and function: what God (and each person of the Godhead) does.
So, when we take an economic view of the Trinity, we are talking about the things which the Father does, or which the Spirit does, which are unique to that person of the Godhead.
For example, it is the role and function of the Holy Spirit to perform the sealing and sanctifying functions of God in the life of a believer.
Jesus, the divine Son, uniquely took on human flesh, came to Earth, lived a sinless life, and died on a cross for our redemption.
The Father sent the Son, the Son submitted to the Father and obeyed the Father, the Father and the Son sent the Spirit. The Spirit glorifies and points to the Son. The Son glorifies the Father. The Father exalts the Son. The Son ever lives to make intercession for us. The Spirit indwells believers, reminding them of what the Son said, and bringing about conviction of sin, righteousness, and judgment.
Application
One important application of these principles, is the understanding that economic actions, such as submission, leadership, and difference of roles, does not diminish or take away from a person’s ontological identity, value, dignity, or identity.
This is communicated explicitly in Philippians 2, where we are told that Jesus, although he was equal with the Father, as God (ontologically), did not regard equality with [the Father] (economically) something to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men, and humbled himself in obedience, even to the point of death on a cross.
The point here is that Jesus’ economic activity did not detract from his ontological nature.
A point of application is made in the New Testament, in the complementary roles of men and women in the church. Though men are called to teach and exercise authority in the “household of God” (1 Timothy 3:15), this does not diminish or take away from the ontological equality of men and women as human beings, and as children of God, but is rather a matter of economic function. If this is true of the Trinity (and clearly it is), then it should not surprise us that it is true in the “household of God,” acted out by those who reflect His image to the world.
For more on this, check out this discussion of 1 Timothy 2:8-15, which I had with my wife, Rosemary, for our church’s weekly Sermon Extra video:
In this week’s episode of the Theology for the People podcast, I sit down with Michael Payne and Curt Fuller to discuss my forthcoming book, The God I Won’t Believe In: Facing Nine Common Barriers to Embracing Christianity. The book is scheduled to be released on March 6, 2022, and will be available for purchase online, as well as in our church’s bookstore. We are currently working on distribution, and getting it into other bookstores and book distributers as well.
In this episode, Michael interviews me and Curt, who edited the book, as we discuss the backstory behind how it came about, as well as the content of the chapters, and who this book is for.
I hope this book will be a great resource to help both those who are wrestling through facing these barriers to embracing Christianity, as well as those who seek to be equipped to help their family and friends move from doubt to belief.
I’d love it if you’d consider buying a copy of the book, and if you’d help spread the word about it online!
Book Release Announcement & Preview – The God I Won't Believe In: Facing Nine Common Barriers to Embracing Christianity –
Theology for the People
Nick wrote a book! It's coming out March 6, 2022 and is available for pre-order on Amazon here.
The book is titled, The God I Won't Believe In: Facing Nine Common Barriers to Embracing Christianity.
In this episode, Nick sits down with Michael Payne and Curt Fuller, who edited the book, the discuss how the book came about, who it's for, and what it's about.
Make sure to visit the Theology for the People blog at nickcady.org for more articles and content.
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Both God the Father and the Son have distinct and obvious eternal roles that we see played out in the Bible, with Jesus being more obvious, but as I was thinking through the role of the Holy Spirit in eternity, I couldn’t come up with anything concrete. Could you give a brief overview of the roles of the triune persons of God as it pertains to eternity? I’m mostly interested in the Holy Spirit, but would love a pastor’s perspective on the other two also.
The “Ontological Trinity” and the “Economic Trinity”
There are two fields of discussion when it comes to the Trinity. The “ontological” and the “economic.” “Ontological” refers to who God is, i.e. that which pertains to being, whereas “economic” refers to what God does.
Specifically applied to the Trinity, study of the “ontological Trinity” is focused on those parts of the Bible which communicate that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet these three, while distinct persons, are one God. Study of the “economic Trinity” is focused on the passages in the Bible which tell us what each of these three persons does as their role in “the Godhead.”
So, ontologically, it is important to point out that eternality is part of God’s nature. God is eternal, and each person of the godhead is eternal. So, the role of God in eternity is merely a continuation of who God has been until now, and who God will forever be.
However, the question above is about the economics of the Triune God after this present age is over, and we have transitioned into what the Bible calls “the new heavens and new Earth.” What will the functions of the three persons of the Triune God be in “the age to come”?
The Role of the Son in the Age to Come
The Son, we are told, is currently seated at the right hand of the Father, and for eternity he will reign and rule as king over all of redeemed creation. (See Revelation 22:3)
Currently, Jesus is making intercession for believers, advocating for us, and is seated on a throne, but for eternity, all we really know is that he will be an eternal sovereign, ruling over a kingdom of righteousness and peace which will never end.
The Role of the Father in the Age to Come
Along with ruling over the redeemed creation from a heavenly throne, revelation tells us that God (not necessarily just the Father) will be a source of light, which will preclude the need for the sun to illuminate, since God himself will be our light.
The Role of the Holy Spirit in the Age to Come
The one thing that sticks out about the Holy Spirit’s role in eternity, is that, whereas the Father and the Son have a throne in the New Heavens and New Earth, the Holy Spirit does not (Revelation 22:3).
Beyond this, I can’t think of any verses which speak specifically about a role of the Holy Spirit in the age to come – but that is not surprising, and here’s why:
What we read regarding the economic Trinity mostly has to do with the work of God to redeem human beings. Remember, the Bible is a book about Jesus: who he is, and how he saves us.
Since the Bible is focused on the story of the salvation and redemption of humankind, it does not tell us very much about what God did before creating the world, nor does it tell us much about what God will do after the redemption of the world is complete.
“The Great Story Which No One on Earth has Read”
This reminds me of the final paragraph of C.S. Lewis’ The Final Battle, which is the final book in the Chronicles of Narnia series, which is full of allegories about biblical passages and teachings.
C.S. Lewis poetically describes “the age to come” in this way:
“…but the things that began to happen after that were so great and beautiful that I cannot write them. And for us this is the end of all the stories, and we can most truly say that they all lived happily ever after. But for them it was only the beginning of the real story. All their life in this world and all their adventures in Narnia had only been the cover and the title page: now at last they were beginning Chapter One of the Great Story which no one on earth has read: which goes on for ever: in which every chapter is better than the one before.”
C.S. Lewis, The Last Battle
The Bible doesn’t tell us much about what the three persons of the Trinity will do in eternity, because that is not the story which the Bible exists to tell.
God Will Do What God Did Before
Prior to the creation of the world, it is important to remember that God existed from eternity past. Without human beings to rescue, sanctify, and redeem, what did God do?
What we can be sure of, is that God was neither bored nor lonely.
From eternity past, the one God, who exists as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit existed as a mutually edifying and glorifying community unto himself. Creation, was God inviting us to join in the “perichoresis,” the eternal relationship which exists between Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, sometimes referred to as “the dance of God.”
In other words, in eternity, we can expect that God will do what God did before: delighting in himself, with each person fueling this mutually edifying and glorifying relationship.
Ask a Question or Suggest a Topic
If you have a question or would like to suggest a topic for me to address here on the blog, click here: Ask a Question or Suggest a Topic
Jon Markey and Michael Payne are accomplished musicians, songwriters, and producers, and in the latest episode of the Theology for the People podcast, I sat down with them to talk about the theology of music.
Michael is the Worship Pastor at White Fields Community Church in Longmont, Colorado. Prior to coming to Longmont, he spent 21 years as a worship leader and missionary in Hungary, and prior to that he served in the US Marine Corps.
Jon is a pastor and missionary in Ternopil, Ukraine. He moved to Kiev, Ukraine with his family in the 1990’s, when he was 5 years old, and earned a masters degree from the Ukrainian National Tchaikovsky Academy of Music.
We recently had the pleasure of having Jon and his family visit Longmont and lead worship at our church, and while he was here, I got to sit down with him and Mike to discuss what the Bible has to say about music: its purpose, uses, and significance – including the “song of creation,” and how it serves to counteract pagan origin narratives, as well as Jubal: the first human musician, mentioned in Genesis 4, as well as other practical discussions which have modern application.
Michael Payne and Jon Markey are accomplished musicians, songwriters, and producers, and in this episode they talk with Nick about the theology of music. Listen in to this discussion of what the Bible has to say about music: its purpose, uses, and significance – including the "song of creation," Jubal, and practical discussions for today.
Check out Jon's ministry: Room for More music on YouTube and his church: Calvary Chapel Ternopil (Ukraine)
Check out Michael on Spotify: Michael Payne and you can watch him on the White Fields Community Church YouTube page.
The book mentioned in this episode is Scribbling in the Sand: Christ and Creativity by Michael Card
Visit the Theology for the People blog.
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Based on your knowledge of activity in Heaven what was going on in Heaven prior to the crucifixion and how did it change, if at all after Jesus resurrection? For example, was there joy in the presence of angels over sinners repenting before Jesus died and rose??
Interesting question! Here are my thoughts:
The Sons of God Shouted for Joy
In the Book of Job, when God speaks, God challenges Job by saying this:
“Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? …when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?”
The “sons of God” mentioned here is a reference to the angels. What this is telling us is that at the creation, the angels were “the audience” who watched and cheered as God created the universe.
The Heavenly Audience
This theme of the angels being an audience, watching the things which happen on Earth, is carried through the Bible.
At the beginning of the Book of Job, we read about Satan asking for permission from God to afflict someone. The picture we get from that scene is that those in Heaven are aware and attentive to the happenings of people on Earth.
Not only are those in Heaven aware and attentive to what is happening on Earth, they seem to be emotionally invested in what is happening on Earth. For example, in Revelation 5, we read that when no one was found who could open the seal, there was weeping in Heaven until it was revealed that the Lamb was worthy to do so.
The whole picture of Revelation is that John the Apostle gets a preview of Heaven. Starting in chapter 4, John is caught up to Heaven, and what he describes is how, from that vantage point, he joins the angels in watching the happenings down below on Earth. The picture, therefore, is of Heaven being aware of and attentive to, as well as emotionally invested in, the happenings here on Earth.
The Stadium and Those in the Stands
In Hebrews 12:1 we read:
Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,
The picture the writer is painting here is that of a stadium, and Greco-Roman competitions, such as the Olympics. He describes life as being a race, a theme which Paul also discusses, using similar language drawing from Greco-Roman athletic competitions.
But here the writer highlights a particularly interesting aspect of those competitions: as we run this race, we are surrounded by a cloud of witnesses. The “witnesses” are those who were mentioned in the previous chapter, Hebrews 11, where we are told about those who preceded us in the faith – the “Old Testament saints,” as they have been called.
The image the writer is invoking is that of a stadium, in which the stands all around us are full of those who have preceded us in the faith, and who are now “cheering us on” as we run the race that is set before us.
The Angels and the Saints
What we are left with, therefore, are two groups: the angels and the saints. Both groups are apparently aware and attentive to what is happening on Earth, and are rooting for us and eagerly awaiting the fulfillment of God’s promises.
What Changed in Heaven When Jesus Died and Resurrected?
The word angel literally means “messenger” in Greek, and this aligns with what the Bible tells us about angels; that they are “ministering spirits.” It would seem that the angels have been and still are aware, attentive to, and emotionally engaged in what is happening on Earth.
Thus, to answer your question, I do think there was joy in the presence of the angels over sinners repenting – prior to Jesus’ death and resurrection.
The one thing which changed when Jesus died and resurrected, is that those who were kept in Abraham’s Bosom awaiting the redemption of their souls were released from Sheol and taken to be in God’s presence.
In regard to God’s treatment of Eli in 1 Samuel 2-4, I’ve always been disturbed that Eli was included in judgement because of his sons.
1. Aaron was not condemned to death because his sons offered “strange’ fire. 2. Eli raised Samuel to be an upright man of God; he must’ve done something right.
I know that perhaps Eli’s heart was not right with God as the text does not elaborate and it does not say that he asked for forgiveness or repented. His admonition of Hannah for being drunk may also reflect that he did not possess the compassion and empathy that reflects God’s character in his servants. Still, I was hoping you might point to other portions of the Bible that explains Eli’s punishment more effectively rather than trying to “read between the lines” and dangerously make up what’s not written.
Still, this has always made me ask if my heart is in the right place and whether or not my faith in Jesus’ redemption is truly “genuine enough”
For those who might need a refresher on the story, Eli was the high priest at the time recorded in the beginning of 1 Samuel. Eli’s sons, Hophni and Phinehas, served as priests in the temple, but they were corrupt, stealing, embezzling, and committing acts of sexual immorality by abusing their positions of power with women who came to the Tabernacle to worship. As a result of their actions, not only was the Tabernacle profaned, but people avoided coming to worship because of the presence of these wicked priests.
The reason for God’s judgment on Eli is outlined in 1 Samuel 2:27-29, in which a prophet tells Eli that he is going to be judged for the sins of his sons because he did not do enough to stop them from doing these acts. In 1 Samuel 2:29, God states that Eli honored his sons more than he honored God, and it is for this sin that Eli is being judged. Although Eli had scolded them, he did not do anything besides talking to them. Eli’s responsibility is two-fold, since he was both their father and their boss – as high priest. Eli should have fired his sons or carried out some sort of disciplinary action, and it is for this reason of allowing these things to take place and not doing anything about it, that Eli received God’s judgment.
I’ll never forget that one of my mentors fired his own son in law over an act of impropriety in the church. It must have made for a very awkward Thanksgiving, but at least he was not following in the sin of Eli.
The sin of Eli was covering up the abuse of his children
Allowing them to stay in power
when he knew they were taking advantage of ppl
Caused God to remove Eli
We must call out abuse
Even when it’s in our own families or party or churches
Two Important Thoughts About Judgment: Temporal Judgments and the Mercy of God
It is worth noting that the removal of both the priesthood from Eli and his life were temporal judgments, rather than eternal or spiritual judgments upon his soul. I think it is likely that Eli, recognizing his shortcomings and sins, and knowing the promise of God to send a savior to save his people from their sins (Matthew 1:21), he would have cast himself upon God’s mercy and received forgiveness. Temporal judgments, in other words, do not preclude eternal salvation.
Furthermore, it is worth noting that the very nature of justice is that it entails getting what is deserved. Mercy, on the other hand, is not getting the judgment that is deserved. So, for God to judge Eli for his failure to lead well as high priest, is fair. On the other hand, when God chooses to give mercy, such as in the case of Aaron, that is His prerogative. As Paul puts it in Romans 9:18: “God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy.” Mercy is never deserved, nor can it be demanded or expected. God reserves this right, and does so for His purposes, which we may never fully know on this side of eternity.
Knowing this helps us understand both the reasons why sometimes God doesn’t save us from the consequences of our sins even when He forgives us of them, and it helps us marvel all the more at the undeserved grace and mercy of God towards us!
Still, someone might ask: “How exactly do you abide in Christ though?
After all, in John 15:9, Jesus told his disciples:
As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Abide in my love.
But what does that mean? What does it look like on any given Wednesday, for example, for me to abide in the love of Christ?”
Thankfully, Jesus answered that question for us!
In John 15:10, here’s what Jesus said:
If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love.
So, the way to abide in Jesus’ love is to keep his commandments.
This is interesting, because just a few verses later Jesus says:
Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends. You are my friends if you do what I command you. No longer do I call you servants, for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you. (John 15:13-15)
This is interesting because it tells us that there is a good and proper motivation for obeying God’s commandments: love for God and a desire to abide in his love.
Obeying God Matters, But It Also Matters Why You Obey God
Obeying God’s commandments matters. Consider what God told King Saul:
Has the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices,
as in obeying the voice of the Lord?
Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice,
and to listen than the fat of rams.
For rebellion is as the sin of divination,
and presumption is as iniquity and idolatry. (1 Samuel 15:22-23)
But when it comes to obeying God, why you obey God also matters very much. It is possible to obey God for the wrong reasons. If your reason for obeying God is self-justification or self-glorification, you will find yourself in the position of being in opposition to God. As we are told in James 4:6,
God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.
On the other hand, if you love someone, and you want to express your love for them, if you want to experience the joy of fellowship with them, what do you do? You find out what they like, what they love, what makes them happy and brings them joy, and you do those things!
An Example: My Wife’s Birthday
My wife’s birthday is coming up. Knowing the things that she likes, what if I were to say: “I don’t have to do those things in order to win her love, since she already loves me. Therefore I will do nothing, because I don’t have to earn her love.”
Of course my wife will love me even if I don’t do anything for her birthday. However, because I love her and want to share a great experience with her (since intimacy is created through shared experiences), I want to do something for her that she will like. Thus, in my pursuit of her, in my desire to know her, one of my goals is to discover her likes and dislikes and do things she likes; not to earn her love, but as an expression of my love for her, and as a way of having fellowship with her.
In the same way, we can express love for God and experience fellowship with God by doing the things that we know He likes!
In Galatians 5:22-23, Paul writes, “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.”
I would venture to say that all of these fruits are very popular today, with one exception: the last one – “self-control.”
Jesus told his disciples that a tree is known by its fruit, i.e.: the way to identify what kind of “tree” (or person) someone is, is by looking at the outward evidences that their life produces. And self-control made the short-list of evidential fruits.
John Stott on Why Self-Control is Essential to Loving Others
“Why do I say that love is balanced by self-control? Because love is self-giving, and self-giving and self-control are complementary, the one to the other. How can we give ourselves in love until we’ve learned to control ourselves? Our self has to be mastered before it can be offered in the service of others.” – John Stott, “A Vision for Holiness”
Self-Control Requires Some Effort on Our Part
Colossians 1:29 describes human effort and divine power working together: “For this I toil, struggling with all his energy that he (Jesus) powerfully works within me”
In Philippians 2:12-13, Paul tells us that we are to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling, but then tells us that it is God who works in us to will and to act according to his good purpose.
Drew Dyke, in his book, Your Future Self Will Thank You, describes how God’s power and our effort work together to produce fruit in our lives:
Sanctification is like sailing. Sailors can’t move without the wind, but that doesn’t mean they kick up their feet on the deck and wait to start moving. They’re tying knots, adjusting sails, turning the rudder—all while making sure the boom doesn’t swing across the deck and smack them in the head. Sailing is hardly a passive enterprise—but it’s completely dependent upon the wind. In a similar way, we’re completely dependent on God’s Spirit to make progress. But we’re not passive. Our effort works with God’s power to move us forward.
How to Bring Glory to God
In John 15:8, in the same passage where Jesus tells his disciples that the way to bear fruit is by abiding in Him (and He in them) – Jesus then says this: “By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit”
Why should we care about spiritual disciplines and spiritual development? Why should we care about being fruitful? Because it brings glory to God – and this is the very reason we exist! It’s what we were made for!
May the Spirit of God move in us that we would produce the fruit of self-control, and may we be those who work with all the energy that God supplies in order to bear much good fruit that brings God glory!
In 1 Peter 5:8, Peter the Apostle told us: Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.
This is interesting because in Colossians 2:15, Paul the Apostle tells us that Jesus “disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them.”
If Jesus, through his life, death, and resurrection, defeated and disarmed Satan and the demonic powers, then how is it that the devil is still prowling around like a lion?
A Toothless Lion
Being that Satan has been disarmed, the real danger he poses is his “roar.”
A roar by itself can’t actually hurt you. Similarly, the devil can’t do anything to you without God’s permission (remember Job chapter 1). But whereas the devil needs God’s permission to harm you, you don’t need anyone’s permission to mess up your own life.
Jesus said this about the devil: “there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.” (John 8:44) Ever since the Garden of Eden, one of the devil’s main strategies for our destruction has been deception. The serpent couldn’t hold Eve down and force her to take a bite of the forbidden fruit in order to destroy her. Instead, he had to talk her into destroying herself by falling into a trap.
For a look at some of the common traps the devil tries to lead us into, check out this message on 1 Peter 5:1-13 titled “Know Your Enemy”
Suffering According to the Will of God
Twice in 1 Peter, Peter speaks about people who suffer according to the will of God.
If Satan has been defeated, then why has God not yet destroyed him? We know that Satan’s fate is sealed: his final demise has been foretold in Revelation 20:10.
But why let him continue to exist and do destructive things, including testing / tempting people? The reason is because although God is not the author of evil, he is a redeemer, who uses bad and even terrible things to accomplish good purposes and carry out his plans.
One of my favorite examples of this is found in the genealogy of Jesus in the first chapter of the Gospel of Matthew, where we see multiple stories of how God redeemed people and situations in the family through which Jesus came. Check out: Redemption: The Knots in Jesus’ Family Tree
One of the biggest mistakes people make when it comes to thinking about the devil, is that the devil is God’s counterpart.
When Paul says in Colossians 2 that Jesus put Satan to “open shame” through the cross, he using a metaphor which his ancient readers would have been familiar with: it’s the picture of what a victorious army would do to the soldiers of the army they had defeated. They would not only bind them and lead them, humiliated, through the streets of every town on the road back to their capital, but they would often be sold as slaves.
The ultimate humiliation for a defeated soldier was something they might consider a fate worse than death: being forced to serve as a slave those by whom they had been defeated. This, Paul says, is what God now does with the devil: in his sovereignty and providence, what God allows the devil to do, He then uses to accomplish good and His purposes.
Mike and I discussed this in more depth in our Sermon Extra video this week. Check it out:
Theology for the People 